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Sharpening a pencil. Art, campaigning, and Wensum Lodge (2018-2024)

Location: Norwich

David reflects on his time as an art student at Wensum Lodge and the ways the classes have impacted on his life. He recalls his involvement in the campaign to save Wensum Lodge, and shares his thoughts on its eventual closure and legacy.

Joining Wensum Lodge

I first went to Wensum Lodge in about September 2018. I joined an art class for the autumn term. I had not done any art since I was at school, which was a long time ago; I left school in 1970. That’s why I’ve called this interview ‘sharpening a pencil’, because I hadn’t picked up a pencil or a paintbrush since then. It was a real change for me to be doing art because I had to relearn everything that I had learnt about art at school.

My daughter Laura had wanted to do a course in art and but she persuaded me to go along to Wensum Lodge. I was quite reluctant, but on the first day I walked into Wensum Lodge and went into the room and sat down – and then I discovered I was in the wrong room. It was a ceramics class and I felt like a right idiot.

When I found the room walked in there, and the tutor, Frances, was very welcoming. When I saw my daughter was in there I thought, I’m in the right room this time. And from that point on, I got hooked – I’m not quite sure why. The tutor was very outward going, very friendly, very open, and encouraged people of all levels. I think there were about 10 people in the class including quite experienced artists of one kind or another.

Frances herself is a well-known local artist and has exhibitions in Norfolk and all over. I’m not really very good at drawing, although I like doing figurative art. People were technically far better than me, and they still are. But there was no competitive element there.

I settled in, gradually became adjusted to going every Tuesday morning and started to talk to people in the class. It was very sociable. We had tea, we had biscuits. And gradually, I began go to the class with ideas that I’d had during the week.

Now, most of the people in the class did then and still do work at home on their art. But I need to be in a group or I can’t settle down. The thing about the art that I did at Wensum Lodge was that you had to be single minded and very focused. It took you away from everyday life, in a certain sense. There’s the internet, there’s shopping to do, there’s cleaning, there’s the house. In Wensum Lodge, you simply sat down with your piece of paper, your pencil, your brush, your crayons, and just focused for two and a half hours on what you were doing. To me, that was a real revelation, having some time dedicated to putting something down on paper and being very focused on that.

I re-enrolled for courses, and we were doing all sorts of things: we were sketching from a model, Frances brought a skeleton in and we sketched the skeleton bones. I began to realise that what I was trying to do was reflect on what I’d been thinking about during the week and then trying to zero in on what that was.

And so, it became very much about art about people. So that’s why I got into figurative art. Again, Frances was very encouraging. We tried different techniques, and I really enjoyed my time there.

Then, Covid-19 intervened in 2020. Wensum Lodge was shut down for that time, and Frances moved the course online. But I need to be in a room with other people, physically. But I think at one point, either before that, or just as Covid was starting, before the regulations kicked in, I remember doing a drawing. They put on tape the floor of the room where we were, tapes showing distance, so I just drew that. In a sense, it reflected my feelings about what I had done in my life and what I was doing, which reflected political things, cultural things.

I began to do what I think are called storyboards from operas that I was familiar with. Visual images of those things. I began to do stuff from films that I remembered. So it was like filtering through all sorts of things in my own past onto paper. I realised it was a kind of record of what I was.

The experience of Wensum Lodge

The feeling Wensum Lodge gave was partly the experience of being in a building where there was lots of creative stuff going on. You could hear in the room next door they were doing something very loud, tin smithing, or something like that. There was always an atmosphere of people doing stuff.

You realised that Wensum Lodge had a history. For example, down one of the small alleys at Wensum Lodge, there used to be a shooting range. It’s now used as a storeroom, but there was still a sign there saying ‘shooting range this way’. And I liked the position of Wensum Lodge on the river, because it brought a kind of calm to where you were going. I would often get there a bit earlier and sit there, near the river. I did do some drawing of the river itself from memory. Rivers seem to come into my mind quite a lot because we went to Berlin at one stage and I can remember coming into the class and doing a piece with the river that runs through Berlin.

So, in a sense it educated me, it brought me to realise that Norwich has at least two rivers I’m aware of. I grew up in London where there are many rivers, most of them under ground, sadly. Norwich is really a city built on the river originally, until the railway came. I think that was another aspect of Wensum Lodge that I really found intriguing and interesting.

Unlike courses now held in the Forum, in the library, which are in a very noisy space, at Wensum Lodge the room we were in had all the equipment we would need. It felt like a very creative kind of place where other students would come for other courses. There was a sink, there were racks of paper…

You were in a place where people were creating stuff. Of course that’s what is missing now, with the Wensum Lodge no longer being there. I don’t know how many of those classes – sculpture classes, tin smithing, art – are still continuing. In my view, you have to have a dedicated place where you can go, and where you can find all the equipment you need in a space where you’re not going to be interrupted, where new people can come and feel comfortable.

I think with the loss of Wensum Lodge that will have gone. I think the ex-Wensum Lodge tutors are probably experiencing difficulties. I suspect that quite a few of them are no longer teaching their subject, or they’ve moved it to their own space.

Although you do bring everyday life in with you, you can leave it at the door. I think that’s what the experience at Wensum Lodge was, and I’m sure for generations of students was like that.

Art class memories

We had to draw ourselves, one week, looking in a mirror. I did a very awful portrait of myself, but what I found myself doing was drawing with my left hand, even though I’m right-handed. Now I don’t know whether that was because I was holding the mirror up with the right or trying to study it, but I found that I was actually able to draw with my left hand. I’d never done that before, so that was a little bit of a revelation, that I could actually use my left hand to draw.

We had models come in, and one member of the class, Claire, would often sit for us, and I think that provided me with a real interest in the human figure and of course that human figure is someone that you know, is part of the class, and how you feel integrated into the class through that.

I think the most intriguing thing we did was with the skeleton. Trying to draw bones of the human body – I found that the most difficult thing. But on the whole, time passed very quickly during those classes, because you are so involved in what you’re doing and the other people in the class were friends really. It’s a very convivial kind of setting.

The Covid-19 pandemic

Covid shut down art for me for a long time. I started doing cartoons for a newsletter that I edit, so I was doing those during Covid. Because of my connections with the railway, and I know lots of people who work on the railway in Norwich, we started something called Key Workers United which was a little newsletter, mainly electronic, about what it was like to be a so-called key worker during Covid.

People who worked in shops, people who worked on the railways and the post office were writing about their experiences of Covid, dealing with Covid, having to be at work, but also with the Covid restrictions.

So my only input in terms of art then during the Covid pandemic and lockdowns was doing cartoons around the subject of Covid and what was happening. And I think I switched off from the art. I think probably many people did, because you ceased to have contact with people except on Zoom or whatever.

As I said, Frances did continue the course but I never felt comfortable with doing it online. So, the art stopped. When Covid was over, I went back immediately. But, Covid had become a kind of wall between the past and the future for me, anyway, partly because I got very ill before I went back to class. As you can imagine, it’s not really possible to do much art when you’re lying in a hospital bed.

I think all of that kind of dampened down my commitment to art, but going back immediately reignited it. Frances would always bring new ideas, new techniques. We would try different things like lino cutting and all that.

After about a year being back at Wensum Lodge, our tutor left and we went with her to a place called Art Pocket, on the other side of Norwich near Anglia Square. That’s where we restarted the work, the same group of students, and that’s where it’s been ever since. In a sense, there was a severance from Wensum Lodge prior to the news leaking out that it was scheduled for closure. So, although we were no longer at Wensum Lodge, all the people in my art class were very concerned, as I was, about the potential closure.

We formed something called Artists for Wensum Lodge, which was just a small thing with us at that initial stage, before the wider campaign took off. It was the year when the closure was being canvassed and announced. We were outside of Wensum Lodge, but still, bore the imprint of Wensum Lodge, if you like. We knew what it represented, and therefore that it had to be saved.

Artists for Wensum Lodge

We were alarmed by the news about Wensum Lodge because I think we’d all assumed that it would always be there. You just didn’t think that such a well-known place, a centre for not just art but a whole range of subjects, could simply be wiped off the map. And I think that was a shocking thing. I and the people in my class were all thinking this simply can’t be allowed to happen.

And I think Wensum Lodge had become part of what we all were, part of the art. You look at famous artists and they’re always in their own studio. We all thought of Wensum Lodge as a kind of big, friendly studio – if I can use Roald Dahl’s big, friendly giant – a place where you could really feel comfortable and do your art, and I think that was part of the shock that I think motivated myself and the other people in the group.

Being someone who has had quite a lot of experience in my life of campaigning for one thing or another, and a personal involvement in the trade union movement, I was someone who thought, well it’s not enough just to simply regret the loss of something like that. You have to try and stop it.

And of course, in my lifetime, I spent a lot of time trying to stop things and being unsuccessful, but I could bring my experience to the campaign as it gradually formed some weight, I suppose I’d say. So probably in my art group I became the link between the Wensum Lodge campaign and that group.

Our tutor Frances, who was still doing some work at Wensum Lodge, faced the prospect of being told that she would have to move out of there and go somewhere else. Now to do art, she has an art studio at St Etheldreda’s Church, just near Wensum Lodge, just up the road. To be told that you had to simply take your art somewhere else with all the equipment and everything, after having found somewhere where you would actually get paid by Norfolk County Council.

That’s one of the things about Wensum Lodge: it’s kind of in the centre of Norwich. It fairly accessible. There isn’t a bus that goes down there, sadly, but it’s not far from the station. It is reasonably accessible even to anyone with a disability because they might sit on the ground floor.

Frances got involved in the campaign. We had a very big meeting just nearby which must have attracted about a hundred people: tutors, ex-students, current students. We couldn’t fit everyone in, people were standing.

I spoke at that meeting from the front, and Stephanie Northen was chairing it. I think what I was impressed with by that meeting was the Wensum Lodge effect. That most of the people there had some experience of Wensum Lodge. They’d been students there going back years and years. We had Labour councillors; we had a whole range of people there, and there was a real feeling that Wensum Lodge could be saved. It’s not surprising really that there was that feeling because there were so many people there, you thought, well, the sheer numbers there would tell Norfolk County Council that you couldn’t do it; it was such a popular place.

Friends of Wensum Lodge

That meeting effectively kicked off the campaign which became known eventually as Friends of Wensum Lodge. We had two lobbies of the County Council that I went on at County Hall. The first lobby was about three of us, including Frances, and we were ushered in. I had some placards that we had stood with outside the building before we went. It was for a full council meeting, and they confiscated the placards as we went in – I don’t know what they thought I was going to do with them. When we went in, I was utterly shocked by the fact that there were security officers in the public gathering with us. I was told this was in case we tried to disrupt the meeting, which we didn’t.

It was meant to discuss Wensum Lodge. I think it was an item on the agenda which was swiftly passed through. No challenge to the decision. The decision has been made by the Conservative councillors, because it was a Conservative majority. So, we came out of that thinking, well, we still have to redouble our efforts.

Following that, about a month later, we did another lobby, much bigger this time. But what struck me at that lobby was when I arrived, at County Hall that there is a  big aeroplane, a bomber – which I think is shocking, that you could have a military machine planted there.

I know Norfolk’s got a big history of aircraft and American bases, et cetera, but it just seems to me terrible that you can have a killing machine set outside a public space. And all the people who’d come for the lobby were by that plane. And I said, it’s about a hundred yards away from the front entrance of County Hall, what are you doing? I said, come on, we’re going to go and stand. They won’t let us in, but we can stand outside.

Security: ‘No, no, you’re not allowed, you’re not allowed.’ We are, and we did. We were joined by one of the Green councillors who supported us. And there I chaired the meeting, we were all standing up, people spoke.

It was really, really good. Raining, raining slightly. So, again, that reinforced my feeling that we could do something. The third big event was in the city outside City Hall, where we had a meeting in the pouring rain – the weather was not kind to us at times – where again, I spoke from the steps of City Hall, and we did a couple of sessions and near the market, where we gave out leaflets. To me, that was the most favourable and important thing about the campaign: the involvement of people, the commitment of people, and the sense that adult education was seen to be vitally important, and Wensum Lodge was a symbol of that.

Campaign problems

Behind the scenes there was quite a lot of belief that the council could be persuaded to change its mind. But I never thought that Norfolk County Council under a Tory administration would be prepared to change its mind unless pressure was brought on them that was irresistible.

But the campaign did not want to go down that route. The campaign did not want to examine or explore what it would take. For example, it was canvassed at one of the meetings. We had regular meetings. And at one of the meetings it was suggested that we occupy the building. Now that would be an option that I would have supported.

But the problem is occupying a building like that is very difficult, and you’ve got to work out what exactly you’re going to do. Because Wensum Lodge is not just one building, it’s a lot of separate buildings, and a big space. So, that never really gained traction, that idea. My personal opinion is that we didn’t really get to grips with a strategy that would really force the council to change its mind. Norfolk County Council had clearly decided some while before that the site was going to close down. And having done that, then they would then sell it off, for flats or whatever, or knock it down, build flats. There is a lot of building work going along, going along by the river there, and it looked like a prime site.

There was also a case that some people in the campaign, and I’ll use their phrase, thought that you could get the ‘big players’ involved. Now, I’m not quite sure who they thought the ‘big players’ were. Norwich City Council?

I think there was always an undercurrent of, well, someone will come along and buy the site, and keep it as an adult education centre. I was always sceptical about that, but that was the dominant feeling. As far as I know, that hasn’t happened, although there was talk of certain people – do we call them big players? I don’t know. People with money, who would step in. I’m not aware that that has happened, although it could still happen. Except of course that as the site lays empty, it deteriorates very quickly. And you’re faced with a site that is decrepit and falling apart.

So I think what I’m doing here is trying to reflect on what we did, because for me, the massive thing that we built up there with people, the massive feeling of celebration and wanting to keep Wensum Lodge going. It’s a great shame that that has simply gone.

When people lose a campaign, they think, okay, let’s move on – can’t do anything about it. Now, I had suggested at various points that out of that campaign, we try to build a campaign around adult education in Norfolk. That didn’t happen. And so, in a sense the impetus and the momentum that was built up during the campaign has been at least temporarily lost.

I mean, all the people who got involved, the huge list of people that we had, I don’t know what’s happened. I don’t know. I’m as guilty as anyone else of not really coming up with ideas which might have won it. And we are in a different situation now, we have a Labour government which could maybe be persuaded to put money into taking over Wensum Lodge.

But you know, the problem with a so-called big player, who would take it over as a private venture, is that you’re then reliant on that person’s goodwill. It’s not statutory.

I was very keen to get trade union involvement, the local trades, Norwich Trades Council. The admin staff at Wensum Lodge were in Unison. And Unison was assured that those staff would be transferred to other posts in Norwich, they wouldn’t be made redundant, and I don’t know whether that’s happened or not. But most of the tutors were not in a union. Only one, to my knowledge, was in Unison. The reason they gave was that they claimed that they were freelance, self-employed. And they were not. They were employed by Norfolk County Council, and therefore entitled to redundancy money, if it could be proved that any transfer of their work had effectively made them surplus their requirements.

But what I suspect has happened is that most of the tutors who had been at Wensum Lodge and then were told that they would be relocated somewhere else probably walked away and just said, ‘I’ve had enough, I can’t deal with it.’ And fair enough, that’s a fair point, but it meant that they were not able to get redundancy money. Norfolk County Council has got away with not paying redundancy money to those staff. So, I think, you know, one of the points that I made frequently was that we needed to have the trade unions involved, we needed to have trade union support for Wensum Lodge. There was not time to develop that really. They did give it verbally, there was a commitment, but turning that into some kind of reality didn’t really happen. I think a point I made a lot was that, in any future reappearance of Wensum Lodge, were Wensum Lodge to be reopened on that site or somewhere else, you would need to have certain safeguards. You would need to have accountability, you would need to have trade union membership, you would need to have a proper industrial relations structure, which I don’t think ever existed at Wensum Lodge.

So, behind the scenes, before closure, I think the council had really written Wensum Lodge off. If they had been sincere in what they wanted to do, they would have said, right, we’re going to do a wholesale renovation, we’re going to put money in – and it needed that, it did need that – but we will attempt to rebuild it on a new level with accountable structures, with a management team that will effectively run it with the support of the tutors. None of those things I think were really there. As far as I’m aware, the manager at Wensum Lodge – I hope I’m not slandering her – kind of disappeared at some point, whether she was stressed out or what.

All in all, I think, were there to be a new Wensum Lodge – Wensum Lodge Mark 2 – we would hopefully be able to learn from what Wensum Lodge had been and take the good things, but also it would need to be rebuilt as a place with a different set of structures, a different ethos. Retaining the old, but trying to find the new.

Day-to-day campaign activities

In my role in the campaign, I was working alongside Stephanie Northen who was the main mover with the Wensum Lodge campaign. I think she put a lot of work in, and must have felt quite exhausted at the end of it.

My day-to-day involvement was simply attending the meetings regularly, which I think were held every fortnight at one stage. Doing leafleting. I became the unofficial, if you like, link between Wensum Lodge and the trade unions, and I liaised with my art group. I helped write stuff, I did placards. We had a very makeshift banner, and then fortunately a couple of people did some good banners. There are photographs of them, they’re really nice ones. I hope they will be in the exhibition that’s going to be held.

I would have liked to have had more meetings on the site itself, because you’ve got a big space there, and more meetings with other staff and students. I think, again I might have been able to do that, but I didn’t. That’s a regret on my part.

At the time there was a campaign that we did win. I was the convener of something called Norfolk for Nationalisation of Rail, and we would regularly go to the station and give out leaflets to passengers, and we gave out forms that people could send in saying they oppose the closure of ticket offices and we won. It shows you that given the right circumstances you can win. A campaign can win. But you do need quite a powerful impetus behind it, which I don’t think we ever quite achieved.

Leafleting events

Leafleting events were organised by the campaign. Leaflets were printed, and we tried to give out leaflets in the space in front of the Forum and were told we weren’t allowed to, because it’s private land.

So, we went down to the market area and had about 20-odd people giving out leaflets. I certainly found that there was a really good response from people doing their shopping on a Saturday morning. People would come up to you and say, ‘Oh yes, I was a student there.’

I think we did two, maybe three sessions of that. But that was getting towards the end. The logistics of such a campaign mean that things tend to move very slowly. Getting a leaflet made, getting it written, getting it printed, getting it out takes time. You can’t really write a leaflet by committee.

So those kind of events, whilst they were very positive in terms of who we spoke to, couldn’t reach sufficient numbers of people. We did get quite a lot of signatures to a petition. So, there was a potential there for people to come forward and people supporting the campaign. Everybody knew about Wensum Lodge – well, not everybody, but people knew of it. It was a part of the furniture of Norwich.

Again, it was all too late in a certain sense. I mean, they were very good events. They were very good for our morale. But we would have had to have done far more like that. And I think had we got, for example, a couple of thousand people outside County Hall, I think an event like that would have made a lot of difference. That would have confronted those Conservative councillors, because obviously the Green Party and the Labour Party supported us, but they were in a minority on the council.

I think if we’d been able to mobilise a lot more people for certain events, we would have had a better chance of stopping it. Because you could see that they thought, ‘Oh no, this campaign is being run by a bunch of older people. People who were once students here. Tutors who are getting near retirement. We can easily roll over them.’ I think there was an element of that real sense that Wensum Lodge was simply a middle-class luxury, knowing the way that the Conservative government was then, and that council which in my opinion is only interested in the agricultural county. It regards Norwich as a pain in the ass because Norwich has a Labour council.

It’s my opinion that therefore attitudes were that all this adult education stuff is just used by the middle class to go and do art history and whatever. Stuff that is not relevant in the 21st century because practical things. Of course, they did do maths and English there, and English as a foreign language, as a second language. So I mean, those things were done there. But, I think the attitude of those Tory councillors is a condescending, patronising view of what Wensum Lodge was. And that’s what allowed them to simply steamroller it through.

Perseverance, hope, and the future

Even though I wasn’t sure the campaign had much of a chance, I was engaged and motivated because that’s what I am. My life has been one of politics and trade unionism, all my adult life. As a trade unionist I’ve been a shop steward, a convener, a branch secretary, I’ve done all those things and always in order to defend people against unjust treatment and for their rights.

And in a sense, this combined both of those things. This was unjust treatment and people’s right to lifelong learning and those two things were in the gun sights of that council. That was the impetus that kept me involved. And I would still be if the campaign was still going.

That’s why I’m still talking about it today, because I hope that an exhibition and other things will keep building something. If we can get an adult education campaign going out of this, then that would be really, really good. I mean, that would be a big thing. Taking up the mantle of Wensum Lodge and using it; even if the site goes, the legacy of Wensum Lodge will continue, and I think that’s probably what you’re doing with this, with this project. A few months ago, I thought, well, Wensum Lodge is dead and all we’re doing is a funeral rite. I think it seems now that there is an intention to try and rebuild.

But again, it needs us to reflect on what happened. I can understand that people don’t like autopsies. We say move on, we don’t want to look back and think about what we did, but I think you do need to have a postmortem. People don’t like postmortems except they like watching Silent Witness, which I do, but you need to have a postmortem which is open, honest, and thoughtful, and think right, how do we build on the strengths that Wensum Lodge demonstrated? Because I can think of many campaigns in London that I was involved in, particularly for the Whittington Hospital in Islington. And they’ve been successful, but they do require a long timeframe.

I think maybe on the day when Wensum Lodge closed, when they put the fences up and the padlock, maybe we should have been there to stop them. We’d have all got arrested, but at least it would have got into the local paper or on TV. The point was that everything speeded up so quickly that I think we were left where we hadn’t had time to build.

Post-campaign reflections

It was December when they announced that Wensum Lodge would close, and by that time, I think people had lost the will to try to stop it. It had been written in stone that it was going to close in that December. So, I think by that time everybody, including Stephanie, people who’d been really centrally involved, were probably exhausted.

You know, you have people on a committee that’s trying to do so many different things. At the end of it you’re just totally out of it. As I’ve said, boringly, we didn’t have sufficient strategy. We were looking for someone to step in. And when that didn’t happen, there was no alternative. We didn’t have an alternative strategy at the time. At the big meeting we had, I said you have to have a two-track strategy.

You, by all means, go to your big players and see what can be done that they can do. But at the same time, you must pursue a campaign that’s got real bite. And we did do that a bit, but not enough. So, I think you always need to have that twin track. We’re seeing it all over Norfolk, we’re seeing it in Benjamin Court in on the coast there, the closure of facilities. Even today, we’re seeing closure of facilities, and we’re also seeing lots and lots of places that are going.

We’re also seeing lots and lots of redundancies in terms of local workplaces. And, in a certain sense, Wensum Lodge is part of that wider – was part of that wider thing where the staff there, the admin staff who’d been there probably for a long time, suddenly find themselves transplanted to somewhere else, and the teaching staff are in a kind of limbo not knowing where they’re going to go. I mean, unless we place Wensum Lodge in a context… But this, of course, is all hindsight.

Reflecting on my role in the campaign, I think I feel that I might have been able to do more. I suppose I probably did more than most people involved in it. But I suppose I feel that I wasn’t possibly vocal enough to have made a difference. I think probably because I’m used to campaigns that take place in the workplace where you have a kind of clear structure, you’re all in a workplace.

In this sense, if I had been a tutor at Wensum Lodge, it might have been very different, but I wasn’t, I was a student. And I think that placed me in a slightly different position in terms of thinking through what could be done. You’re more of an outsider in that sense. And I don’t think I had, particularly at the beginning, I don’t think I had sufficient grasp of what might’ve been needed. I’m not sure I have that even now. To be honest, I feel that more could have been done, and I could have done more perhaps to make it happen. But that’s for another time, really. If a new campaign could be got off the ground around adult education, then I would want to be involved in that. I’m retired, so I’ve got a bit more time.

The legacy of Wensum Lodge

For me, although I haven’t been doing the art course this term or last term, the legacy of Wensum Lodge is that I’m still doing art. I still do the cartoons and I will be returning to the art class at St Etheldreda’s church. It’s got a lovely churchyard where in the summer months you can go and paint or draw there.

I think the fact that I’ve got art is the lasting thing from Wensum Lodge for me, really. It would not have happened otherwise. I mean, I wouldn’t have produced the stuff that I’ve been showing you, and I’ve got a pile of it that high upstairs – most of it will go in the bin.

Timeline: Lobby of Norfolk County Council at County Hall was on Monday 3rd July 2023 at 10am- there were 4 of us who went into the public gallery; the first public meeting was on Monday 28th August with about 100 people in attendance and it launched the campaign; (I was one of the speakers) from that point onwards there were fortnightly meetings which would get about 15-20 people; the big County Hall lobby was on Tuesday 26th September with some 30-40 people from 08.30 onwards – placards, banners and speeches (I chaired it); the next event was a public rally at City Hall on Saturday 4th November at 12.00 with about 30 people (I was one of the speakers); there were at least 2-3 stall sessions in the city centre later on giving out leaflets and using a petition.

David Welsh talking to WISEArchive in Norwich on 1st February 2025 © 2025 WISEArchive. All Rights Reserved.